Remembering the Ministry of
The Reverend Dr. Carl McIntire
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Dr. McIntire was a prolific speaker who made his voice heard on a variety of issues pertinent to the Church in society. A selection of his speeches are included here in transcript form.

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On the Hot Seat

The following article is reproduces a November 1972 panel discussion involving Dr. McIntire and a group from the Delaware County (PA) Daily Times. The article is reproduced from the November 6, 1972 edition of the paper. Delaware County Daily Times, Monday, November 6, 1972

On the Hot Seat: Rev. Carl McIntire

Rev. McIntire: liberty destroyers must be exposed

"You are a fundamentalist. What exactly is that?" -Fazio

"A fundamentalist is a word that is used in our century to describe those who adhere to the great common doctrines of the Christian religion, such as the infallibility of the Bible, the virgin birth of' Christ and the bodily resurrection of Our Saviour.

"These distinctive doctrines are those which make Christianity Christian and it is contrasted the word modernist or liberal which represents the views which have been introduced into the churches in this century by those who question these doctrines or refer to them as theories."

"About how many followers do you have?" -Reynolds

"I have no idea. I am the president of the International Council of Christian Churches which has 155 denominations in it and possibly somewhere around 20 million people are related to this council throughout the world.

"My broadcast is on several hundred stations, including WXUR and we have daily listeners of somewhere around 12 or 15 million."

"Is this an evangelical type program?" -Reynolds

"No. Of course there is a great appeal to win men to Christ which would be evangelism. But we represent the solid substance of the total impact of Christianity."

"What are you trying to get across in your broadcasts?" -Fazio

"Well, I'm trying to get a viewpoint heard which has not been heard and I'm seeking to present the Christian religion as it's been believed for 2,000 years. I stand for righteousness which is an obligation of every Christian in all our affairs; personal, family, political, international, and my broadcasts do deal with current issues of all kinds and they are viewed in the light of this position."

"Do you preach your doctrine to all peoples?" -Reynolds


"That's inclusive of all races and religions?" -Reynolds


"Do you feel that people who have different views from yours have a right to express their opinions?" -Fazio

"I certainly do."

"Would you allow people like Madeline Murray O'Hair to come on your program or members of the American Friends Service Committee?" -Fazio

"Yes. We've invited her to come on WXUR. In fact we've invited, since this station went on the air, all these different positions and viewpoints.

"I'm very strong in the righteousness of my own views but we certainly defend the right and offered the right of opposing views on our station."

"Has anyone accepted?" -Fazio

"Some have but most of them declined."

"Did they give reasons why they declined?" -Fazio

"Very seldom. The big case, of course, was the Greater Philadelphia Counsel of Churches.

"WXUR is a religious station and was purchased by Faith Seminary, which is a religious institution and I am the chairman of the board.

"When our station was attacked by the state legislature and the famous resolution 160, they alleged that Carl McIntire had views that were dangerous and said that we had been attacking the National Council of Churches, which was correct, and that we started a council of our own and a church of our own.

"I went on the radio WXUR and spent three hours defending our position from that legislative attack.

"Then we offered the Greater Philadelphia Council of Churches three hours that we would pay for so that they could reply or present views. They declined to accept but asked if I would pay for three hours on any other Philadelphia station for them."

"Did they give any reason for this?" -Fazio

"No. But I considered the request that we pay for time on another station most unusual but we agreed to do it, but then they even declined to accept that."

"How many listeners do you have on WXUR?" -Fazio

"I have no idea but it is largely listened to. It covers an area of a population of about five million from Harrisburg, down through Delaware, down Cape May and up through Allentown. The difficulty that the station has had, has certainly increased its listening."

"From time to time you've been characterized as an ultra conservative, anti-black, a preacher of anti-semetic doctrines. To what do you attribute this?" -Reynolds

"Well, it's all false. This is the type of abuse that we've suffered at the hands of these liberals and the examiner who spent 14 months on this case. He came here from the FCC and in his conclusions, which he gave to the station, he said there was no evidence or record at all about anything anti-semetic about Dr. McIntire. We are anti-Communist. That's certain."

"What is a liberal?" -Reynolds

"Well, the liberals in the church world are those who are seeking to introduce into the churches these foreign doctrines which are in contrast or contradiction to the creeds of the church.

"We consider the liberals to be very subversive of Christian doctrine. Our problem is these liberal elements are seeking to change the foundation and structure of the Christian religion and to change the nature and purpose of the church."

"In what way are they doing this?" -Fazio

"Well, they are preaching another message."

"What is their message?" -Fazio

"Well, the one true message of the Bible is that Christ died for our sins and was raised from the dead and was the Savior and we have to believe only in Him.

"Their message is that Christ was some kind of social reformer, a promoter of what they call the social gospel. And there's none of that in what Jesus taught and then we find that these liberal elements are lined up with the more radical Marxist elements and are companions with them and they are using the substance of the church to promote these revolutionary forces."

"What kind of Communism are you opposed to?" -Fazio

"Every kind. Any kind that you want to describe."

"In the early days of our country, Communism was used whereby people came together and shared whatever they had." -Fazio

"No, our country never had anything to do with Communism.

"In fact the convents of the Catholic Church use this Communistic theory of sharing all wealth. Are you opposed to this idea?" -Fazio

"Yes, we are. We're opposed to anything which destroys or limits the responsibility of the individual. Man was created to serve God. His first duty is to God. His second duty is to his neighbor. The command of scripture is Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, all thy strength, with all thy mind and love thy neighbor as thyself.

"We believe if you're right with God, you'll be right with your neighbor, too."

"Do you believe in freedom of religion?" -Coles

"I certainly do. We believe that everybody is free to worship as they please, where they please and when they please."

"What is your opinion of atheism?" -Coles

"I think they are sadly mistaken but I think they are entitled to their opinions.

"I have had a very lengthy debate with Madeline Murray O'Hair on television at the University of Texas. She and I debated for one solid hour. We had a very direct clash.

"I think the atheist must be met. They must be answered. They must be shown that their position is illogical. It's contrary in nature that there is a God with His mind, His purpose and power and that this God loves us."

"You are concerned primarily with the welfare of the individual?" -Reynolds

"Yes, the whole genius of our society is built upon the secret ballot, the responsibility of the individual for himself, his and his family. You can't have a free society without free men; and consequently, the whole emphasis of the Scripture is formed upon the fact that man must be changed. He must be born again and he must be concerned about his neighbor's life, his property and the Bill of Rights, and there must be liberty under law."

"How about things like welfare and taxes?" -Reynolds

"I think taxes are justified up until the point where they become confiscatory or up until the point where they destroy the property of man or the rights of man. We must have some taxes, which is lawful. See, the state is the recognized institution established by God. Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's."

"As a preacher do you pay taxes or are you tax exempt?" -Fazio

"Yes, I most certainly do. We pay income tax, and taxes on our agency activities. My headquarters in Collingswood, NJ pays the local taxes. Although I think we could be exempt if we sought it."

Do you pay taxes on your other holdings such as the Hilton Hotel and Boeing in Cape Kennedy, FL. And your land holdings in New Jersey?" -Fazio "We pay taxes on all our land holdings in Cape May and also in Cape Canaveral. We elected to do that because we are part of the community. The only property in Cape May which we do not pay taxes on is the college property, which is exempt by law."

"How is your movement financially supported?" -Coles

"By the contributions from Christian people and by legacies. We get no support directly or indirectly from any government, federal, state, or local agency."

"Your holdings in Cape Kennedy were estimated at $25 million including the Hilton and the Boeing building. How did you accumulate this?" -Fazio

"We didn't accumulate this. We went in there on a limited and very narrow agreement of which we were to take possession and then over a period of years as we developed it the property would actually be developed and unfolded and become ours."

"How much was the property worth when you bought it? What did you buy it for?" -Fazio

"Well, I don't know. It was variously estimated. At the time we went in there it was estimated anywhere between $12 and $20 million. Those are just paper estimates."

"What do you think of the President's recent peace overtones?" -Reynolds

"My opinion is that it's a certain sellout of our very heroic ally. They are still arguing over what the linguistic terms are in those agreements. If they haven't gotten any further than that as to what these terms mean then we haven't any real basis for an agreement.

"What they have done in the agreement, as I understand it from the newspapers, is to set up an immediate cease fire in which the Communist forces will remain in South Vietnam like smallpox all over the face of the country. And then they are agreeing for a tri-party unit which will control things politically until they have some further agreements and this is to represent one-third; the Communists one-third and what they call the neutrals the other third.

"Well, whoever these neutrals may be they haven't helped in the struggle to preserve the country. Jesus said 'he who is not with me is against me.' In the conflict now the neutrals will line up with the Communists and oust This, which of course has been the demand of the Communists that he be removed before they would come to terms.

"I think Nixon is surrendering not only militarily but politically while McGovern is only surrendering militarily. He asked for an immediate walk out with the unilateral withdrawal. Nixon is arranging for the same type of withdrawal except he set up a political arrangement which now gives the Communists what they demanded and they will take over the country shortly.

"The situation in South Korea is a paradise compared to what they will have in South Vietnam"

"Where does it say in the Bible that the Communists are the bad guys and we are the good guys?" -Reynolds

"Well, the Bible has a great deal to say about the wicked. The wicked shall be turned away."

"Why are the Communists the wicked?" -Fazio.

"Because they have no respect for God, for order, for humanity or freedom. They don't know what the truth is. The whole Communist system is a bankruptcy of morality."

"Order is one thing that the Communists do have?" -Fazio

"The Communists don't have anything that we want. They haven't anything to give us that we can use. They are bandits, they are aggressors. They're out to destroy the kind of freedom that we have known."

"Where did Christ preach against Communism?" -Fazio.

"Jesus preached against all wickedness and ungodliness. Here are the Communists who say there is no God. Well, in statues of the Christian religion it's a very foolish concept and the Christians are the ones who have to fight to preserve order and decency."

"Then Madeline Murray O'Hair, because she does not believe in God is a wicked person? -Fazio

"Yes. I would say that Madeline Murray is a big sinner. In fact I told her when I met her that she needed to repent and be converted."

"Then you believe anybody who doesn't believe in God is wicked even if they lead a moral life?" -Fazio

"I think they need to be converted and I think that we must have the freedom to witness to them and mingle with them so that we can reach them through the Gospel.

"And that's why we bought WXUR so that each view would be able to be heard in this immediate area. The liberals have such complete control of this mass outlet in our area that nobody would carry our program.

"So it was a matter of our breaking through the repression that the media had heaped upon us."

"You once made the statement to a group of homosexuals that homosexuality was a sin. Could you explain this?" -Cole

"The Bible says so."

"Which passage in the Bible says this?"

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. And it goes on and speaks in detail about these homosexuals, these thieves, these murderers and these robbers."

"As I understand the Bible, Christ put down everybody but the Jews. It seems like we're the people he's talking about." -Reynolds

"No. Christ did not put down everybody except the Jews. In fact, Jesus Christ condemned the Jewish leaders of his day in Matthew 23. He called them hypocrites and blind guides and some other very strong terms. Jesus Christ loved all men. He came with the purpose of redeeming man."

"You just said Jesus Christ loved all men. His whole life was enveloped with love. He accepted everyone - the prostitutes, the sinners. You are condemning people who do not agree with you. You also seem to be advocating war." -Fazio

"No, I do not. I say we're against war. We're more strongly against war than anybody else."

"Then what were the purpose of the rallies?" -Fazio

"My rallies were to win the one that we got in. I had the finest and quickest way to end it with the loss of the fewest lives and we were he ones who said they should close up Haiphong Harbor because when there is no wood the fire goes out. Nixon finally did this."

"It seems to me in doing that you are sacrificing morality for expediency?" -Reynolds

"No. Once the war is initiated by the aggressors by the forces that are destroying liberty, justice requires that they be stopped and also that they be punished for the crimes against humanity of which they are guilty.

"In Romans 13 in the Bible it makes it clear that the state has the responsibility to deal with crime. The powers that be are ordained by God for order.

"We're the ones who want peace. Peace in our present world with the wickedness that pertains to it has to be secured by strength.

"Jesus said no man can enter into a strong man's house and spoil his goods except he will first bind the strong man."

"It seems to me that we were the aggressors in that conflict." -Reynolds

"We were not only not the aggressors but we were invited to come in by the South Vietnamese in order to keep pledges that were made to secure their integrity and their security and their freedom.

"We are now the victims of very deceptive Communist propaganda about peace which has had far reaching effects upon the minds of many of our people. We stand for the same identical things that William Penn stood for. He fled the Old World, he wanted trial by jury. He came here and our founding fathers have said give me liberty or give me death.

"God is the author of liberty. God gave us liberty to begin with."

"Liberty is different things to different people." -Reynolds

"Liberty is indivisible. Liberty is the same for all. It must not deny one segment of society to the benefit of another. We have to be equal all of us."

"If there was another totally atheistic country. Would you advocate going in there?" -Fazio

"Our view in Russia is not that you go in there militarily and blast them to pieces. Our view is that the whole Russian world would have long ago collapsed and we wouldn't have communism. It's impossible. It's against everything which pertains to human nature and communism and Russia would have long ago been liberated by the forces which love freedom inside of itself.

"We're keeping it going by financing it, giving them loans. We're providing what they need to even get the military hardware that they're using against us."

"Did your church support the Civil Rights Movement?" -Reynolds

"Yes, we supported civil rights. We're not against civil rights. In fact, I think if we were granted our civil rights right now, we'd be in better shape. The little fellow can't get any where. We represent the repressed religiously. It is difficult to get to the Supreme Court. It takes thousands and thousands of dollars to get in there. Nobody will come to help us. I see a grave injustice in the courts."

"What did you do to aid the Civil Rights Movement?" -Reynolds

"We did a great deal throughout all our churches, throughout the world through the resolutions that we had. We were among the first to bring the Negro into our activities. We have them sitting on our council. We meet with them. I have just come from Africa; been over there three weeks. We've got great groups in Africa.

"Ours is the strongest Christian Group in Africa."

"How many blacks are members in your church or members in your Christian council?" -Fazio

"Well we have more blacks than we have whites in the United States. We have a tremendous group throughout Africa. They are all black."

"What about here in the United States? How many blacks belong to your church here?" -Coles

"Some of them are in black churches. I don't know how many but they're in."

"Is there a great number?" -Coles

"Well they are considerable. I have no figures on it. There are many, many black people in the Philadelphia area that are helping me finance this appeal to the Supreme Court. We have not only black programs on WXUR but I had black people coming into my studio just last week giving me money."

"What kind of black programs do you have?" -Coles

"Gospel programs, just like any other. Call in programs, they call in to give their testimony. They can speak and say what they want. There's no difference between the black and the white."

"I understand that you are opposed to bussing. Why?" -Coles

"Because it's an artificial and ineffective way of remedying the problem. It's repressive and expensive. We think that you can't change the hearts of man.

"This problem we have, the whole race issue, is a matter basically of human attitudes. You cannot force human attitudes. Human attitudes have to come out of the heart. And that's where our gospel and our message and our approach of love and understanding will bring these things about, and they have brought them about within our church circle. "

"How is bussing repressive?" -Reynolds

"Well, a child gets up and has to ride an hour in the morning, an hour at night. He should be able to go to a community nearby, to walk with his friends. That's the kind of freedom we have."

"Isn't it more repressive when he goes to a school where he is not receiving a quality education or even an equal education?" -Coles

"No, I should say not because a quality education is not a matter for him it's a matter for us to see that he gets it - the proper teachers, the proper standards. These are things that we can give and that we should give, and I'm sure we're trying to give them."

"Well, that's easy to say when you're living in suburbia, but if you're living in a city like Chester or like Philadelphia you're not in a position to give." -Reynolds

"All that Chester needs is more Christianity in the hearts of the whites and the blacks. We need the good gospel in this town as we need it everywhere and that's why we need WXUR on the air.

"WXUR has done more than any one factor in this whole area to bring the spirit of love and understanding and Christian doctrine to the hearts of blacks and whites alike.

"This station is an asset. It's the salt of the earth. And now it's to be destroyed and our rights are being taken from us."

"In regard to the civil rights movement again, did you in the course of your support for the movement stage demonstrations similar to the war rallies you conducted for victory in Vietnam?" -Reynolds

"No, we oppose the radical element that got into the civil rights movement."

"What's a radical? Someone with a new idea?" -Reynolds

"No, the Communists were using the civil rights movement to turn the white against the black. I mean the civil rights movement was used as an agitation channel to create animosity."

"Do you have proof of that?" -Fazio

"Oh yes, we have plenty of proof of it. We have the testimony of former black men who were in the Communist conspiracy working to generate this hostility."

"You're saying people like Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Ralph Abernathy, Jessie Jackson?" -Reynolds

"Well, just look at Abernathy right now. Abernathy is lining up with the Cong, carrying the Viet Cong flag in marches with these revolutionary forces and Abernathy has greatly nullified his influence in these last few years by his identification with the Communist elements like he has.

"Last Holy Week he was up here at Harrisburg with all the Viet Cong flags on the platform. We have pictures of him there. He was walking on the platform with a clenched fist in his hand when they greeted him and they all saluted him.

"He's too identified with the Communist element right now and he also has identified with the pro-Hanoi element. My concern is the Negroes will not follow him on this line. Negroes of this country have as much to lose as we have. We all have the same destiny as far as freedom is concerned and that's the equality and that's the substance of the blessed Scripture."

"I can't see how you can say the Negro has as much to lose; they never had as much to start with?" -Reynolds

"They have the same freedom that we have and they'll be the same kind of slaves that all of us are when the Communists come and take us over."

"Well, that might possibly be better for the black person; everyone would supposedly be equal under Communism?" -Reynolds

"Please don't talk like that. People will not be equal. They will simply be a vegetable in the hands of a tyrant where their minds and their gifts and their responsibilities will be destroyed."

"You said you believe in liberty, if the country elects to have Communism, do we have a right to go in and tell them they can't?" -Fazio

"We certainly have a right, so far as the United States is concerned, to seek to keep a free world.

"If they vote for a Communist form of government we should no longer finance or support them or be a party to aiding them."

"Then you don't believe in liberty." -Fazio.

"I believe in full liberty because that's what I'm advocating. I believe that the criminals in the earth that are destroying liberty have to be exposed and overturned."

"It sounds as though you believe in liberty as long as everyone believes as you do?" -Fazio

"No. I believe in liberty for everybody, but I don't believe that tyrants give us liberty."

"And you believe Christianity will be the answer to liberty?" -Coles.

"Well, I think that Christianity will champion freedom. It always has because God is the author of it and I think that in our Christian faith we are asking that everybody be free to choose and make their own decisions. This is what America was all about in the beginning.

"America started on the basis that people could serve God, worship if they wanted to. In Red China today there is not a church open, not a single minister permitted to function. There's no religion - Buddist, Mohammad, Confuscian, Christian - there is nothing and man has simply become a new man in the image of Mao with no soul."

"Because there aren't any churches doesn't mean there isn't any religion in the hearts of these people?" -Reynolds

"They're not permitted to express. I speak from the standpoint of the government and the repressive control that it has over the human being."

"What indication do you have these people want formal religion?" -Reynolds

"Well, it's not even possible that they could have it."

"Maybe they don't want it." -Reynolds

"Well, they were all there. They've been killed, some of the finest men I have known in my life. Chai Yu Ming, who was head of a church and had a seminary. The Communists took over, destroyed his seminary, killed his people and him.

"Men like him were associated with me. They were in our International Council of Christian Churches. They're all gone."

"What kind of educational background do you have?" -Fazio

"I was reared in Oklahoma and went to high school there. I have a teaching certificate from Southeastern State Teachers College; a BA degree from Park College, a Presbyterian school.

"I have my bachelors of divinity from Westminster Theological Seminary, spent a year at Princeton Theological Seminary. Those are my earned academic degrees."

"What's the status of Shelton College?" -Fazio

"The status of Shelton College is: recently educational authorities in the State of Florida by unanimous action gave the college a license to operate in the state. There were no conditions. They acted on a unanimous recommendation of a seven man visitation committee who came to the college.

"Florida gave to the college what New Jersey took away and they congratulated our dean on having 47 percent of our faculty with having earned doctor's degrees."

"Do people attending this college have to be affiliated with any particular religion?" -Coles

"No, anybody can come when he desires to. We have high standards of quality. We're a non-hippie college. We don't have permissiveness. The boys and girls don't live in the same dormitory."

"What do you mean by hippie philosophy, dress, what?" -Reynolds

"Dress, long hair, filth. Our young people take baths and clean up."

"Is there a great religious influence at this college? -Coles

"Very great religious influence. Not only have we just gotten our accreditation but we announced this week that since we are a religious school of course, next year we will take every member of the student body on a field trip in their Bible course to Jerusalem. It'll be a part of the college operation. It will cost students nothing extra other than regular tuition.

"We will take every freshman class that enters as part of the curriculum.

"Now, we're right next to our temple, we have the great Temple of Jerusalem that was displayed at Expo '67. Ten million people saw it. We are now proceeding to develop a replica."

"Do you believe that people who do not believe in Christ are wicked?" -Fazio

"Well, I believe all that do not believe in Christ are lost. The Bible says they are lost, they're unsaved. There is only one way a person can come to God and that is through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ said I am the way, the truth and the light. No man cometh unto the Father but by me."

"Do you think they are wicked if they don't?" -Fazio

"Yes, certainly before God. There isn't any question. They're going to die of their sins and they have to be born again. That's the heart of the Christian religion.

"Christianity claims to have the only Saviour who was ever raised from the dead. Nobody else has ever been raised from the dead."

"Would it be accurate to say your group is as much politically oriented as religious?" -Reynolds?

"Yes, I can't separate what a man's relation to God is from anything else because his belief in God determines everything he does. Life is a totality, you don't fracture life. You believe in God you're going to obey his commandments and that relates to your government."

"Would you ever break a law you thought was unjust?" -Reynolds

"No, not unless it asked me to worship a false god.

"We're opposed to any form of riot, revolution, civil disobedience and disrespect for authority. Now, if the government would proceed to tell me to worship an idol, then of course I'd have to obey God but the United States is not about to do that yet."

"In regard to Shelton College, couldn't you have simply raised your standards and come within New Jersey's accreditation requirements?" -Fazio

"No, we raised our standards at Shelton College. It was the liberal establishment of New Jersey and the persecution of our religious views."

"What about the fact your dean had bogus credentials?" -Fazio

"That was a mistake. We didn't know about it. We dismissed him and took care of that. That happens in all sorts of educational institutions. But that's not reason enough to kill a college. We were the victim of just plain political repression and it was against a religious minority.

"What people have got to recognize is as a tiny, abused, despised minority, we were denied our civil rights and not a single civil rights leader will come to our defense."

"What is your opinion of the black political movement?" -Coles

"Well, blacks have a perfect right to any political activity or group that they want to but the Black Manifesto is Communist and the black power element which walks down the streets of New York with Viet Cong flag and clenched fists are serving the Communists and the blacks must be delivered from the delusions of the Communists."

"If the blacks didn't carry the flag but just had the clenched fist would that be all right?" -Reynolds

"The clenched fist is the Communist sign. If they could get some other sign we wouldn't object to that."

"Would you support a black separatist movement if one were to develop in earnest?" -Reynolds

"Not if it were Communist.

"The greatest enemy we have in the world today is Communist. They have the atom bomb"

"The US had it first." -Reynolds

"Yes, but we have no intention of using it."

"Fact is , we were the first to use it." -Reynolds

"Well, we used it over there (Japan) but we have no intention of using it at the present time."

"How do you feel about interracial marriages?" -Reynolds

"I'm very much opposed to them. I think they are wrought with all sorts of false sanctions and everything else.

"If people love each other what difference does it make?" -Coles

"Well, you've got your social sanctions. A lot of problems involved."

"How do you propose we handle the alleged Communist threat?" -Reynolds

"Well, the first thing we do is wake up the American people to the nature of the threat. The second thing we do is quit financing them and building them up and the third thing is to use our influence throughout the world."

"Are you supporting a political candidate in the coming elections?" -Reynolds

"Well, I'm not permitted to discuss the matter because of my radio's status."

"Will you support a political candidate?" -Reynolds

"I'll vote for a candidate."

"Did you think Joe McCarthy back in the 1950s had the right idea?" -Reynolds

"I certainly did. I had great respect for Joe McCarthy. I had tremendous respect for General MacArthur. There's no substitute for victory."

"Are you a member of the John Birch Society?" -Reynolds


"Have you ever been?" -Reynolds


"Do you approve of the John Birch Society?" -Fazio

"Yes, I think it's doing a lot of good. It's not a religious organization. It's purely an organization."

Closing Statement:

"WXUR is the victim of a formula which the liberal bureaucrats in Washington have devised under what they call the Fairness Doctrine. Now they made the doctrine, not Congress. They administer it. They judge it. They prosecute those who they think are violating it. And then they administer the punishment.

"We have a bureaucratic structure now which has usurped our great concept of division of powers which would protect the individual. The doctrine itself is very nebulous, it has too many subjective factors in it. That a man's opponents, as in WXUR's case, can make a complaint and be drawn into an expensive hearing. We've spent $200,000 to date. It's going to take us $65,000 to $160,000 to take it to the Supreme Court, all because the Greater Philadelphia Council of Churches and those related groups went and got the hearing and tied us up.

"As a result of this no radio station is going to carry programs which might get them into trouble. It's a brilliant scheme of censorship whereby the FCC is able to eliminate what they call rightwing programs which are our strong militant gospel programs.

"This means the gospel of Jesus Christ will be put off the air in this country and it's on the way out."

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